Day 11: Twelve Days of Christmas #LBBill

Day 11 of the #LBBill Twelve Days of Christmas and we’re up to the final clause, Clause 8, a simple clause which would have a profound impact.

If the #LBBill becomes law, Clause 8 would remove people with learning disabilities and autism spectrum conditions from the scope of the Mental Health Act 1983.

This means that these people could only be ‘sectioned’ or otherwise treated under the Act if they also had a diagnosis of a recognised mental illness.

If a person with a learning disability or autism needed to be detained, then this would have to be done under the Mental Capacity Act. Otherwise, like the rest of the population, the only basis for detention would be the criminal law if someone committed a crime.

We know that the Mental Health Act creates some rights for people who fall under its scope and their families, but these rights are not enough to justify detention and compulsory treatment. We think it is wrong that disabled people should be treated under mental health legislation if they don’t have a mental illness.

This is explained further in today’s audio introduction film with easy-read images:

What do you think?

Do you have experience of the Mental Health Act being used in relation to people with learning disabilities or autism spectrum conditions who do not have a mental illness? Would this clause have helped?

Let us know what you think, on the feedback pages of the blog, on facebook, twitter, or by email. Thank you.

5 thoughts on “Day 11: Twelve Days of Christmas #LBBill

  1. I agree, as at the moment, autistics, should not as they are being, be held sedated, some dying of effect of medication, indefinitely under the MHA.

    But we do not need new law to change this, except for sanctions on the medical staff, who are allowing it to happen. They, and the private corporations, who ‘care’ for these autistic, for 4,500 per week tax free, are acting illegally.

    The problem is that the MCA is more draconian to the autistic, than the MHA..

    As once they are assessed as incapable, all their decisions can be made for them by the LA, And the LA can, and is deciding, they live for life wherever the LA want to put them, in whatever conditions, and medication the LA , with the help of a reviewing GP, want to force them to take.

    So under the MCA once incapable, there are no safeguards, or release, or review for life.


  2. Hi As a family we have been closely following the development of the LB Bill and will be attending the event in Manchester tonight. We absolutely support the intent of the Bill and greatly appreciate the hard work of so many people to improve and secure the lives and rights of vulnerable people with autism and people with learning disabilities. Thank you. Our son Tom, now 21years old, has autism and was admitted to an ATU when he was 18yrs old following a poor transition to Adult services.The Trust and NHS Commissioners, who still determine his support needs, have no apologies for his ill-treatment, defined as abuse by an independent safeguarding investigation. They also have no comment on the numerous CQC criticisms regarding his care and their failings to comply with the MHA Code of Practice. Tom’s story is in the public domain and can be found on the web-site we created at Please take a look. We became aware that Tom was locked up alone, with no staff with him, 24 hours a day when we started to visit him in the daytime and we were locked in with him. The social workers from the safeguarding investigation team, other visitors, were too. The website was created when we had nowhere left to go to help him – he had won his discharge home at a MHA Tribunal and the Trust and Commissioners decided to act in contempt of court and move him to the ‘first available bed in the country’ before the discharge date the Tribunal had specified.. Pre-his admission Tom was supported 1:1, went to school, had lots of interests, loved to be out on his bike, roller-blades, skate-board etc, he loved going walking in the Lake District and to go on holiday abroad, he enjoyed going out for meals. He remains warm and loving with his family but is now very afraid of other people. Two years on from his discharge he rarely leaves the house, if he does this is only for short distances from home with Mum and Dad. He has to check if cars park outside the house. He has nightmares, panic attacks, flashbacks to events at the ATU and from his echolalia at these times we hear that his personal and direct experiences were even worse than we had witnessed or imagined. Our question is that if the existing legal rights of people with autism enshrined with the Human Rights Act, MHA, MCA are disregarded by statutory bodies – seemingly on the basis of Tom’s experiences on a systemic basis – why would the LB Bill make any greater difference or impact? Do we know how many people with autism are detained under the MHA; how many of these have an IMHA with autism training; how many people apply to MHA; what are the outcomes? Do we know how many people with autism are impacted by the MCA; how many of these people have an IMCA with autism training; how many people of these people challenge DOLs; with what outcomes? How many times have prosecutions been attempted with regards to MHA and MCA? With what success? We would suggest that the case for the LB Bill would be strengthened with these facts and an explanation of how the LB Bill will complement and add value to ensuring that the rights of people with autism and people with learning disabilities that already exist (and sadly seem to be repeatedly disregarded) are respected. We look forward to meeting some of the LB Bill team this evening. best wishes Peter, Barbara and Tom Green


    • Dear Peter, Barbara and Tom,

      We have an 18 year old autistic daughter, who everyone- GP,LA, is trying to trick, force, into independent living, as she, as your son is, is a huge cash cow.

      They are worth £4,500 per week in a mental health hospital run by private charities, where in 2011 4 died from their medication in just 8 months on the same ward.

      No tax so actually worth 6,500 per week. And, under MCA regulations they can be forced into any drug or treatment trial,

      Please read my blog by googling finolamoss, particularly posts on MCA, and Isabel’s future care.

      Clearly, the gateway to encagement ,is an assessment that they are incapable, and then anything can be done with these adults for life.

      Read my blog post MCA and removal.

      The IMCA are not truly independent, as they are employed by charities, mainly, who themselves get kick backs from government for independent living, and for thier provision.

      Also their function, is merely to inform the autistic what is going on. They are not allowed to take part in the decision making process.

      Which, is a tick box exercise. The test for capacity per se is vague, SUBJECTIVE and not fit for purpose, and completely inapproriate for an autistic person.

      It is unclear, also who can be an assessor.

      Famiies are being tricked by SS doing an emotional assessment by a psychologists, who knows little of autism, and GPs who receive kick backs who know even less.

      We need to make a Freedom of Information Act Notice on the What Do They Know Site on each LA, to find out how many people each year, are being assessed as incapable, and how many are autistic.

      You will probably find it is nearly 100%..

      There is a huge conflict of interests, as the assessors are paid by the LA, SS, who have a huge amount to gain in an incapable assessment, ie £4,000 per week for life, and pharma kick backs, and getting problems behind the wall of the state and the only people who would care and notice abuse, the parents cut out, or left powerless.

      The assessors must be truly independent, the assessment changed, and autistics removed from this assessment and therefore the mental capacity act.

      The Act has been a terrible betrayal of autistics.

      NAS and such charities, have made milliions from pretending to represent their interests, and allowed their abuse and death ,at the hands of the state, without even being seen,– what have, and are, these charities doing – colluding in encagement, as many of them run independent living homes, claiming the huge amounts, that the autistic can claim in benefits, and under acts like the Chronically Sick and Disabled Act, which allows up to 82,000 per annum on social care alone.

      I am sorry for all your suffering, particularly Tom’s, and, I do not want my daughter to be anymore destroyed by the state than she has been already.

      It is a very sick, evil state, that conspires to cause so much suffering to its most vulnerable members, purely for profit.

      We must stop it.


    • On figures of autistics detained under MHA, again we need another FOA Notice.

      From press, 600 are detained in ST Andrews Northampton, apparently indefinitely, which is illegal per se, as I stated 4 died in 2010-11, on the same ward from faecal impactions, made worse by the force feeding of high dosage anti psychotic drugs, see my blog post The Risperidol Scandal. Their organs shutting down as their bodies became more impacted, until they died.

      My daughter has had two such impactions, after incidents at school, but both were not investigated despite my constant requests, and eventually it was our GP and us who cleared her out.

      NHS do not want to know about the autistics medical problems, and that they, obviously affect their behaviour and can make them aggressive.

      The Sunday Times in November, reported a leaked doc by NHS England that there were 900 autistics detained in hospitals, and the only reason they were noticed, was because of an audit, which showed,. No one knew which LA they had come from, so they did not know who to bill for their 4,500 per week.

      These people are literally, an accounting exercise, so this is not treatment, and the doctors are not complying with their Oaths of ‘do no harm’.

      Rather, than making the NHS comply with their legal and medical requirements, and release these poor people; you can imagine the state they would be in after years of bed ridden force fed medication, like the poor 25 year old, who died at 26 stone recently, NHS England suggested, that their corporate carers, be paid cash incentives, for every autistic released, quite unbelievable, when they have already been paid millions, for what ? Work it out in St Andrews alone 600 x 4,500 per week…..


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